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Shooting a couple gangster era .38 S&Ws (not Specials)

2.6K views 31 replies 14 participants last post by  infamous.jas  
#1 · (Edited)
The top gun is a 1917 vintage cut down police marked Police Positive. The fat butt 4" gun is from 1930. My friend and I shot them informally last week with some new ammo he bought and we also tried some old Colt New Police ammo I have. We couldn't hit crap with the snub gun but I just love the looks of it. But the 4" gun shot great at defense ranges. Both ammo shot about the same.

 
#2 ·
In a world were most .38 Specials are spinning .357 length cylinders - I love seeing the proportions of the cylinders on those two '38' special-in-a-different-way guns.

I keep telling myself that I'm going to run-up an outfit specifically to re-load for .38 S&W but never get 'round to it. I really like shooting them and loaded down a bit, even more so. I use a .22 bullet trap with zero ill effect. Almost like shooting a center-fire 'gallery gun' in a way.
 
#4 · (Edited)
My ol .38 S&W shoots pretty well. Carries well too. View attachment 847040 View attachment 847041
Nice one. Is that model called the “Terrier”? The cylinder appears to be as long as a .38 Special like S&W just made a version in that caliber because it was still fairly popular when it was introduced(?). I know your gun is in my mid 50s Gun Digests I still have from my dad.
 
#8 ·
Yep, that’ll work! In books about the Wild Bunch they always wrote about Kid Curry confronted in a saloon by two lawmen and drawing and wounding both of them. I always assumed he used a Colt SAA but later it was specified as a S&W New Departure. A couple other references to Butch Cassidy mentioned them owning these guns.
 
#18 ·
The guy who tried to assassinate Teddy Roosevelt used a 1912 PP .38 that looked just like my cut down gun but with a four inch barrel. The famous shot going through TR's folded speech and glass case in his pocket before interring his chest. I wondered if the cartridges were round nose S&W or flat point Colt NP. Turns out they were S&W.

 
#19 · (Edited)
The guy who tried to assassinate Teddy Roosevelt used a 1912 PP .38 that looked just like my cut down gun but with a four inch barrel. The famous shot going through TR's folded speech and glass case in his pocket before interring his chest. I wondered if the cartridges were round nose S&W or flat point Colt NP. Turns out they were S&W.

The combination of the round nose, the watch, and the fact that Teddy Roosevelt was tough as a bull they say is why he made it through. When I was shot one the bullets hit my iphone that had an otterbox defender case that was in my front pocket. Probably saved my femur. The .38 S&W sized (.360) 125 grain SWC from Rim Rock Bullets is like the bullet that Buffalo Bore uses in it's 38 S&W personal defense round. If someone had a say, a later solid frame Pocket/Police the 38 S&W could be loaded to make quite an effective personal defense load.
 
#21 ·
My US Revolver Company ( Iver Johnson ) .32 S&W Top Break Revolver...

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Specs:
Barrel Length ~ 3 inches
Overall Length ~ 6.5 inches
Height ~ 4 inches
Weight ~ 3 ounces ( unloaded )

Serial Number / Date of Manufacture Information:

My specimen has a serial number of 92091...manufactured circa 1916.

US Revolver Company used an all numeric serial number system until they reached 100,000 in 1916. In 1917 they added an alphabetic prefix and restarted the serial numbers at 00001.

Ammo:
The .32 S&W cartridge was introduced in 1878 for Smith & Wesson pocket revolvers. Originally designed by the Union Metallic Cartridge Co. (UMC) as a black powder cartridge using nine grains of black powder, the round has been loaded with smokeless powder exclusively since 1940. It is low powered and perfect for use in small frame concealable revolvers and derringers. The round remained popular in the United States and Europe long after the firearms chambered for it were out of production.

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#22 · (Edited)
=======HISTORY=======

Assassination of the 25th President of the United States:

William McKinley (January 29, 1843 – September 14, 1901) was the 25th President of the United States, serving from March 4, 1897 until his assassination in September 1901, six months into his second term. McKinley led the nation to victory in the Spanish–American War, raised protective tariffs to promote American industry, and maintained the nation on the gold standard in a rejection of free silver (effectively, expansionary monetary policy).

McKinley was the last president to have served in the American Civil War, and the only one to have started the war as an enlisted soldier, beginning as a private in the Union Army and ending as a brevet major. After the war, he settled in Canton, Ohio, where he practiced law and married Ida Saxton. In 1876, he was elected to Congress, where he became the Republican Party's expert on the protective tariff, which he promised would bring prosperity.

Although McKinley enjoyed meeting the public, everyone around him was concerned with his security due to recent assassinations by anarchists in Europe, such as the assassination of King Umberto I of Italy the previous year, and twice tried to remove a public reception from the President's rescheduled visit to the Exposition. McKinley refused, and arranged for additional security for the trip.

On September 5th, the President delivered his address at the Pan-American fairgrounds in Buffalo, NY, before a crowd of some 50,000 people. In his final speech, McKinley urged reciprocity treaties with other nations to assure American manufacturers access to foreign markets. He intended the speech as a keynote to his plans for a second term.

One man in the crowd, Leon Czolgosz, hoped to assassinate McKinley. He had managed to get close to the presidential podium, but did not fire, uncertain of hitting his target. Czolgosz, since hearing a speech by anarchist Emma Goldman in Cleveland, had decided to do something he believed would advance the cause. After his failure to get close enough on the fifth, Czolgosz waited the next day at the Temple of Music on the Pan-American Exposition grounds, where the President was to meet the public.

On September 6th, Czolgosz went to the exposition armed with a concealed small five shot .32 S&W caliber Iver Johnson "Safety Automatic" top break revolver (serial #463344 )...he had purchased four days earlier for $4.50.

He approached McKinley, who had been standing in a receiving line inside the Temple of Music, greeting the public for ten minutes. At 4:07 PM, Czolgosz reached the front of the line. McKinley extended his hand... but, Czolgosz slapped it aside and shot the President in the abdomen twice, at point blank range; the first bullet ricocheted off a coat button and lodged in McKinley's jacket; the 2nd bullet seriously wounded him in his stomach.

McKinley urged his aides to break the news gently to his wife Ida, and to call off the mob that had set on Czolgosz, a request that may have saved his assassin's life. McKinley was taken to the Exposition aid station, where the doctor was unable to locate the second bullet. Although a primitive X-ray machine was being exhibited on the Exposition grounds, it was not used. McKinley was taken to the Milburn House.

In the days after the shooting McKinley appeared to improve. Doctors issued increasingly optimistic bulletins. Members of the Cabinet, who had rushed to Buffalo on hearing the news, dispersed; Vice President Theodore Roosevelt departed on a camping trip to the Adirondacks.

Leech wrote:
"It is difficult to interpret the optimism with which the President's physicians looked for his recovery. There was obviously the most serious danger that his wounds would become septic. In that case, he would almost certainly die, since drugs to control infection did not exist ... [Prominent New York City Physician] Dr. McBurney was by far the worst offender in showering sanguine assurances on the correspondents. As the only big-city surgeon on the case, he was eagerly questioned and quoted, and his rosy prognostications largely contributed to the delusion of the American public."

Unknown to the doctors, the gangrene that would kill him was growing on the walls of his stomach, slowly poisoning his blood. On the morning of September 13th, McKinley took a turn for the worse. Relatives and friends gathered around the death bed.

At 2:15 AM on September 14th, President McKinley died. Theodore Roosevelt had rushed back and took the oath of office as president in Buffalo.

Czolgosz, put on trial for murder nine days after McKinley's death, was found guilty, sentenced to death on September 26th, and executed by electric chair on October 29th, 1901.

Assassin's Actual Pistol & Handkerchief
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#30 ·
Grandfather of all Smith and Wesson .38’s. Baby Russian made from 1876 to 1877 in .38 S&W caliber. They made 25,548 of this model and this gun dates to 1877. The barrel has a 3” length.

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