Clear as a mud-tablet locked in jello.😆

I'm with you on the interpretation. There is enough overlap to support either argument.

Thanks for taking the time on such an enjoyable post.

My general sense of it is that "long Colt" came about well after the cartridge's introduction in order to relate it to later 'shorter' "Colt" cartridges. I had read in a book in a basement at Ft Devens that; as the rimmed and the ACP .45s coexisted for a short time in military stores, that this likely prompted the moniker. The book was printed in the 50's and was a Government sponsored printing on patents, drawing numbers and such. Of course, I read this in the 80's too, so I've that to contend with.🧐

 

There is no 45 long colt or 45 short colt officially. There are 45 Colt and 45 Schofield. I also would not deny for a second that the terms long or short colt have been used by people for over 100 years.

 

The .45 Long Colt in the Colt letter isn't necessarily proof of anything. The Colt Super .38 pistol has always been noted as a .38 Super (the cartridge) in the Colt letter unless it was a Super Match. It is my understanding that if you have a letter with the .38 Super heading you can get it rewritten as Super .38.

 

Fun Fact - Shooting and Fishing Magazine began in 1885 as "The Rifle", and was renamed "Shooting and Fishing" in 1888. In 1906 it was bought and renamed "Arms and the Man", and eventually became the National Rifle Association's "American Rifleman", published to this day.

Is this 100% proof? The final word on the subject about the "There is no such thing as a 45 Long Colt" debate? I say no. However, it does show there is room for shooters and collectors to refer to the cartridge as either 45 Colt or the 45 Long Colt.

...I unlimbered my .45 Colt long and let him have all five loads...

If you look closely at the original language used in this text, it says long, not Long, more than likely referring to the distance of which he began to shoot. If you read everything, you can get a hint as to his "language" or writing style.

On top of that, with all of the other articles, through the years, in that one magazine alone, tons of 45 Colt mentions, but no other 45 Long Colt or 45 Colt long mentions during that timeframe.

.....and the next "mention" is in 1939.....two possible mentions in 66 years from 1873.....nah!

The cartridge box you showed is the 45 Colt Government, as you stated. The box is from Winchester and no earlier than 1926. The box used the K-code "K4545T" of which Winchester did not start using until 1926...they are also black powder loads.

Chasing The 45 Colt

docs.google.com

Each and every 45 caliber cartridge has a specific official name.....and not one is "Long" nor "Short"

• 45 Colt
• 45 Schofield
• 45 Auto/ACP (I could care less which one...LOL)
• 45 Colt Government

 

For a few years around the WW1 timeframe, Remington produced a 45 Colt Short. The box was so marked. From what I understand it wasn’t a good seller. Supposedly, it stayed on the dealer’s shelves for quite some time.

As for 45 Long Colt or 45 Colt, I go with 45 Colt. That’s what’s marked on the Colt barrels, at least on the civilian models.

 

For a few years around the WW1 timeframe, Remington produced a 45 Colt Short. The box was so marked.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I saw one too (picture) in a magazine article probably 30 +/- years ago. But since I didn't remember what magazine I did not include it in my OP.

 

I wonder if any other manufacture besides Remington produced a “45 Colt Short” as” late as WW1? The government by that time had mostly forgotten the 45 Colt in favor of the 45ACP.

 

I wonder if any other manufacture besides Remington produced a “45 Colt Short” as” late as WW1?

If they did I would say it was a very limited number (or shooters loved them and shot them all up and threw away the empty boxes. This is evidenced by the fact finding such an example is very, very rare. Hence the debate "There is no such thing as a 45 Short Colt."

 

WWI and WWII seemed to be a huge turning point for a lot of things, to include copyright infringements. SAAMI gives us a hint as to why some cartridges no longer exist.

History - SAAMI

The Short History of SAAMI: Setting the Industry Standards for Nearly a Century The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute traces its roots to 1913 and the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA). During the lead up to World War 1, SAMSAA was...

saami.org

 

There was a discussion in the Colt Revolver Forum about a Colt Anaconda box for a revolver in 45 Colt caliber. It didn't take long for the thread to get sidetracked into a debate about the 45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt.

I've decided to start a new thread here as it's no longer a discussion about the box or Anaconda revolvers, but a historical discussion about the 45 Colt cartridge.

First off, for full disclosure, I am on the side of the fence where either 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt is perfectly acceptable. There are many, many cartridges which have dual names among shooters and collectors (whether they be official designations or not).

For those of you who want to review the original thread before reading the information below, here is the link.

45 Long Colt Anaconda Box

A friend has a 45 Long Colt Anaconda box. I want to give him a fair price for it. I know they are somewhat rare. Maybe I can find the gun someday. Any idea on the value?

www.coltforum.com

Picture below is a 50 count box of Winchester cartridges. I'm not a cartridge collector, but I would guess the box is at least 100 years old and maybe more. Note the caliber designation, 45 Colt Government. Those of you who are SAA Cavalry collectors are well aware of the Army adopting the 45 Colt cartridge for the Colt revolver, but then having to redesign it as it could not be used in the 45 caliber S&W Schofield revolver. The redesign included making the case shorter and the rim larger. To my knowledge, this cartridge was known as the 45 S&W.

With this change, the shorter 45 S&W could be used in both Colt and S&W martial revolvers, whereas the longer 45 Colt could only be used in their Colt revolvers. Of course, the same applies to civilian revolvers.

So which one of these cartridges is the 45 Colt Government? Is it 45 Colt? Or 45 S&W? Let's open the box.

Of course, the head-stamp will answer the question. AHA! It's 45 COLT!

But wait. The length of the cartridge is shorter and the rim is bigger than the 45 Colt. As a matter of fact, the dimensions of the cartridge are the same as the 45 S&W. Now what?

It says 45 Colt on the box and on the head-stamp. But it's a short 45 Colt. The owner of the cartridge box writes on his website (link below) how he could envision an old cowboy going into a store to buy some 45 Colt cartridges, and the clerk hands him this box. The cowboy looks at the box and says "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!"

45 Short Colt - The Long & The Short of The 45 Colt

From the pages of The IHMSA News, Shooting sports, hand gun, ammo, cartridges, xp 100, reloading, firearm, cast bullet, bullet casting and more information articles

www.lasc.us

Considering there were 158,000 (First Generation) Colt SAA revolvers made in 45 Colt over a period of 65+ years, there were clearly many cowboys, ranchers, hunters etc. who owned and used a Colt revolver over a long period of time capable of using dual cartridges. Either the longer 45 Colt, or the shorter 45 S&W. And I believe it's reasonable to believe they used the terminology of long and short.

Want some bit of proof?

Note the portion of an article below from the December 13, 1900 issue of Shooting & Fishing Magazine, page 191, very first line at the top. "I unlimbered my .45 Colt long and let him [a Grizzly bear] have all five loads" [also note what appears to be he carried with an empty chamber? ].

So here we have a hunter from 123 years ago distinguishing between a short 45 Colt cartridge and a long 45 Colt cartridge.

Is this 100% proof? The final word on the subject about the "There is no such thing as a 45 Long Colt" debate? I say no. However, it does show there is room for shooters and collectors to refer to the cartridge as either 45 Colt or the 45 Long Colt.

S&W had to increase the rim diameter in order for the shortened 45 Colt to eject properly. So, you have a 45 S&W cartridge. It should still chamber in a 45 Colt SAA, but the rim diameter was increased.

 

Victorio1sw. I’m glad to see you back. I enjoy your posts.

 

Thanks. I have been working another collector's website for months, but one that has little to do with guns. It does involve a lot of Texas history, however.

 

I've seen a gun magazine publish an article by a so called gun writer who stated that the 45 colt, which he admits was created with cavalry in mind and the need to bring down a horse, is a recoilless round. So no phrase used to describe the 45 colt, long, short, or otherwise, would surprise me.

 

Surely that wasn’t one of mine because .45 Colt recoil does bother me a bit which is why I favor .44-40 and .38-40.

 

It was not. And I've read a great many of your writings in books and magazines. In fact, I wrote you an email one time where I asked about the path in life of one little girl you did a gun raffle for "little Lucy"? It was years after the article came out and I had daughter born. My daughter was born with cystic fibrosis and it was a pickmeup to read she was doing so well.

I'm tucked into bed now so I'll dig it out tomorrow morning and show y'all.

 

None of my barrels have "Long Colt" anywhere on them..... just 45 Colt....

That's good enough for me.

 

I think a lot of this is being overthought. The S&W Schofield faded away rather after the Colt was officially adopted. S&W put there efforts elsewhere with very lucrative contracts with Russia and other countries. The first successful cartridge on the scene was the 22 Short which became the Short, Long, and Long Rifle. This very thing happened to many cartridges over the years and some are still evolving in this manner today.

Back to the 45 Colt for a bit. There may have been other guns that were built for it but I cant recall any until Colt built the 1878 and then the New Service. It was basically a Colt Cartridge so why muddy the waters and call attention else where then every round of of it fit a Colt Gun only. Other makers went straight to the 44-40 for some good reasons and the rim diameter was a big one. It is not really discussed much but the Colt Single Action was a very small part of the handgun scene in overall numbers and a tiny part of the firearms production. The Winchester 1873 was produced in twice the numbers not to mention the 92 and other manufactures building guns for the 44-40.

We all dwell on Colt and it's history but at the time it was not given much thought. None of is old enough to know what a man going into a store looking for a box of ammunition to fit his Schofield asked for. There were 9000 built and most went to the US Government.

 

Other makers went straight to the 44-40 for some good reasons and the rim diameter was a big one. It is not really discussed much but the Colt Single Action was a very small part of the handgun scene in overall numbers and a tiny part of the firearms production.

None of is old enough to know what a man going into a store looking for a box of ammunition to fit his Schofield asked for. There were 9000 built and most went to the US Government.

The 44-40 had a large rim for the purpose of being ejection out of a rifle.

If ya'll read the old articles and magazines, ya'll will notice that many writers and reader's write-ins referred to the Colt much the same as they were advertised in catalogs.... ".45 Colt's" (with an 's). Many may recall John Wayne/Rooster Cogburn (1975) mentioning the girl's "Colt's Dragoon", emphasis on the apostrophe s. In the catalogs, namely UMC's catalog, the 45 Colt cartridge was advertised as "45 Colt's U.S.A"., as early as January 6, 1880, in order to distinguish it from the other 45 caliber cartridges at the time, to include the "45 Webley", "45 Adams", "45 Winchester 1876", and the "45 Smith & Wesson". UMC used this same advertisement nomenclature up until the early 1920's when it was changed to simply "45 Colt".

In 1900, referring to a murder trial, the man's "revolver" was referred to as a (".45 Colt's").

So unless you were an uneducated, can't read, tabaco chewing, back woods shotgun welding, over-all wearing moron.....I suppose they just asked for 45 Colt cartridges rather than 45 Webly, 45 Adams or 45 Smith & Wesson or any of the other 45 caliber cartridges......cause there certainly was no 45 Short Colt cartridges.

 

A great discussion, everybody, thanks for contributing your thoughts about the terminology of the 45 Colt cartridge. I've learned some new things from the information posted here.

What I don't understand is why a nickname or slang term for the cartridge is such a big deal. There are many cartridges and guns which have a nickname that most of us use and hear all the time without any big problem. Ever seen a single shot rifle marked "Big 50"? How about a cartridge box labeled "Triple Deuce"? Have you ever bought "Flying Ashtrays" for your Government Model? And Civil War collectors really like those big .72 caliber Belgian "Pumkin Slingers". Yet there are serious problems with 45 Long Colt, with the most common reason given it was never an official name.

There is also an advantage to using the Long Colt designation. It removes any doubt about what cartridge is being discussed. The reason being nimrods (and some experienced collectors too) quite often refer to the 45 ACP as 45 Colt.

And how about guns? The web site of the Springfield Armory National Historic Site in Massachusetts, on the page about John Garand and his famous rifle, says it was officially called the M1 rifle. Perhaps the Garand Collects association should change their name? It's not like they don't know the proper, official name. The very first sentence of their homepage refers to the rifle as the "U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1." I suppose "U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 Collectors Association" doesn't have the same ring to it? Or maybe the acronym, instead of GCA, would have to be USRC30M1CA.

Then we have "Trapdoor" Springfields, "Elsie" Smith, "Figure 8 Revolver", "Monkey Tail Carbine", ad infinitum. Official names? No. Slang terminology accepted by the majority in the firearms community? Yes.

I guess my point of all this, and always has been when this discussion comes up, what's the big deal about 45 Long Colt? And if you have a strong and valid reason, that's fine. But whatever your criteria is against people using 45 Long Colt, do you apply that same criteria to all other cartridges, guns, and accessories in gun collecting? Have you never used a nickname or slang in gun collecting?

I'm not saying people have to or should use the 45 Long Colt name. Call it whichever you choose. To me, there's room for both and neither one bothers me.

 

It removes any doubt about what cartridge is being discussed.

Slang terminology accepted

• The 45 Long Colt "nickname" is used by most as the actual name....and not the nickname...that is the main problem. The second problem is that is sounds plumb stupid since there is no 45 Short Colt.....you know, like the 38 Short Colt and 38 Long Colt?
• What removes any doubt is calling an item by it's correct name so the language barrier is clear. 45 Colt vs Colt 1911, 45 ACP vs 45 Auto, Single Action Army vs Frontier Six Shooter....sometimes the different names between both firearm and cartridge.
• I don't use slangs, it's just stupid...never have, never will...at least not on purpose. Never could understand why everyone is always trying to change something.

Then there is the "Jeep" and the "Piper Cub"

Come to think of it, most forums I frequent, I have reverted to using my real name if it will let me change it, rather than a silly nickname. Never could understand why folks want to hide...other than "that name is already in use".

 

There was a discussion in the Colt Revolver Forum about a Colt Anaconda box for a revolver in 45 Colt caliber. It didn't take long for the thread to get sidetracked into a debate about the 45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt.

I've decided to start a new thread here as it's no longer a discussion about the box or Anaconda revolvers, but a historical discussion about the 45 Colt cartridge.

First off, for full disclosure, I am on the side of the fence where either 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt is perfectly acceptable. There are many, many cartridges which have dual names among shooters and collectors (whether they be official designations or not).

For those of you who want to review the original thread before reading the information below, here is the link.

45 Long Colt Anaconda Box

A friend has a 45 Long Colt Anaconda box. I want to give him a fair price for it. I know they are somewhat rare. Maybe I can find the gun someday. Any idea on the value?

www.coltforum.com

Picture below is a 50 count box of Winchester cartridges. I'm not a cartridge collector, but I would guess the box is at least 100 years old and maybe more. Note the caliber designation, 45 Colt Government. Those of you who are SAA Cavalry collectors are well aware of the Army adopting the 45 Colt cartridge for the Colt revolver, but then having to redesign it as it could not be used in the 45 caliber S&W Schofield revolver. The redesign included making the case shorter and the rim larger. To my knowledge, this cartridge was known as the 45 S&W.

With this change, the shorter 45 S&W could be used in both Colt and S&W martial revolvers, whereas the longer 45 Colt could only be used in their Colt revolvers. Of course, the same applies to civilian revolvers.

So which one of these cartridges is the 45 Colt Government? Is it 45 Colt? Or 45 S&W? Let's open the box.

Of course, the head-stamp will answer the question. AHA! It's 45 COLT!

But wait. The length of the cartridge is shorter and the rim is bigger than the 45 Colt. As a matter of fact, the dimensions of the cartridge are the same as the 45 S&W. Now what?

It says 45 Colt on the box and on the head-stamp. But it's a short 45 Colt. The owner of the cartridge box writes on his website (link below) how he could envision an old cowboy going into a store to buy some 45 Colt cartridges, and the clerk hands him this box. The cowboy looks at the box and says "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!"

45 Short Colt - The Long & The Short of The 45 Colt

From the pages of The IHMSA News, Shooting sports, hand gun, ammo, cartridges, xp 100, reloading, firearm, cast bullet, bullet casting and more information articles

www.lasc.us

Considering there were 158,000 (First Generation) Colt SAA revolvers made in 45 Colt over a period of 65+ years, there were clearly many cowboys, ranchers, hunters etc. who owned and used a Colt revolver over a long period of time capable of using dual cartridges. Either the longer 45 Colt, or the shorter 45 S&W. And I believe it's reasonable to believe they used the terminology of long and short.

Want some bit of proof?

Note the portion of an article below from the December 13, 1900 issue of Shooting & Fishing Magazine, page 191, very first line at the top. "I unlimbered my .45 Colt long and let him [a Grizzly bear] have all five loads" [also note what appears to be he carried with an empty chamber? ].

So here we have a hunter from 123 years ago distinguishing between a short 45 Colt cartridge and a long 45 Colt cartridge.

Is this 100% proof? The final word on the subject about the "There is no such thing as a 45 Long Colt" debate? I say no. However, it does show there is room for shooters and collectors to refer to the cartridge as either 45 Colt or the 45 Long Colt.

I think that Mike Belliveau had a good video on the Evolution of the Colt SAA, where he also mentioned that S&W increased the rim diameter. That thin rim on the original 45 Colt, was causing extraction problems, which should be no surprise. Then, because S&W hated Colt, they also shortened the cartridge and renamed it. This is not "overthinking a topic" but is really basic engineering stuff.

 

That thin rim on the original 45 Colt, was causing extraction problems, which should be no surprise. Then, because S&W hated Colt, they also shortened the cartridge and renamed it. This is not "overthinking a topic" but is really basic engineering stuff.

Did Smith & Wesson manufacture their own ammo? At what time/date did S&W manufacture the 45 Colt cartridge for what ever S&W revolve it fit?

 

S&W sold their own branded ammunition but I believe it was sourced to a genuine ammo maker but I'm not sure who it was. Somehow a Mexican maker rings a bell about that but I really can't say. The S&W ammunition outside of the Nyclad which was sold to Federal did not have a good reputation.

 

snidely, I don't recall Colt making ammunition either.

 

To add to the confusion, I noticed not long ago a boutique ammo manufacturer was offering a round that both the box and head stamp each read “45L Colt.’

 

Imagine in 100 years when collectors start finding .45 CS cases/cartridges.

 

In general, by all means add to if'n ya want!

Brief...

During the advent, for example, of the 44 WCF and 45 Colt during the short years between 1873 and the mid 1880's, Winchester, and UMC were two of several popular ammunition manufactures. Each manufacture sold cartridges for each manufacture's arms such as Winchester, Colt, Remington, S&W, etc.

• Frankford Arsenal (FA) - Military of course
• Winchester (WRACo)
• Union Metallic Cartridge Company (UMC)
• E. Remington & Sons (purchased by Winchester and Hartley & Graham in 1888) (Winchester sold their shares of E Remington & Sons to Remington in 1896) (REM-UMC)
• United States Cartridge Company (USCCo)

Each ammunition manufacture used different components for the same said cartridges such as the 45 Colt and 44 W.C.F....i.e. the patent wars! Due to these "patent wars" as I call it, sometimes each cartridge had a different name. For example, the 44 W.C.F. had several names depending on what manufacture manufactured the cartridge such as...

• Winchester Ammunition- 44/100 Winchester's Model of 1873 (44 Winchester), 44 Winchester Model 1873, 44 cal. W.C.F. Model 1873, and finally the mid 1885ish WRACo. 44 W.C.F. headstamp (44 W.C.F.) and by 1894 44-40...and seen as 44-40 on the 1903 44 W.H.V. cartridges.
• Winchester Ammunition for Colt - "44 C.F.L"., for Colt's MR (Colt's Magazine Rifle),
• UMC - 44 W.C.F. , and by 1894 at the request of Marlin.... the "44-40". Some UMC boxes marked both 44 W.C.F. and 44-40
• 44 Remington, for Remington. Yeap, a 44-40 cartridge which was called the "44 Remington" (hollow point) (REM-UMC) by Remington....not to be confused with the earlier 44 Remington pistol cartridge...LOL!

Once all of the copyright, patent stuff calmed down, the 44 Winchester was advertised as both 44 WCF and 44-40...and eventually just 44-40 by all.

Back to the 45 Colt

• Frankford Arsenal (FA) (Oct 1873 to August 1874) - "Colt's Revolver Cal. .45"
• Winchester (WRACo) 1873 - .45 cal. Central Fire Metallic Cartridge for Colt's New Breach Loading Army Revolver. Winchester's catalog of 1873 called it Colt 45.
• Union Metallic Cartridge Company (UMC) 1873 - .45 cal. Central Fire Metallic Cartridge for Colt's New Breach Loading Army Revolver. Colt's 45 U.S.A.
• United States Cartridge Co. (USCCo.) 1873 - .45 cal. Central Fire Metallic Cartridge for Colt's New Breach Loading Army Revolver

anyhow, it just gets more and more confusing

"45 Colt" started appearing on both Winchester and UMC boxes by 1911.

 

If you shoot 44-40 be sure to click on " Chasing The 44-40" as listed above.

 

I forgot to add the other Remington Box...and some more to get a taste of the designation names.

The stamp code on the bottom should translate to 6 August 1917

Remington's "44 Winchester"

Black Powder call-out on the side label.

As we all know, the dates are not the manufacture date, but the date of the label (Winchester) or packing date (Remington). Below is the afore posted 44 Remington box. Note the date stamp.
The stamp code should translate to 27 December 1917, four months after the above box. For whatever it's worth, this 44 Remington label is an over-label, on top of another label. I have no idea if this was due to patent issues or just a Bud Light moment.
I think these are from the Guy Hildebrand Collection.

Reverting back to the .44 Winchester designation, this 28 December 1917 box shows the 44 Winchester label.

Thus the 44-40 really had a few names;

• 44/100
• 44 Winchester
• 44 W.C.F.
• 44-40
• 44 Remington (Maybe for like one day in December 1917)
• 44 W.H.V.

The 45 Colt had a few;

• 45/100 (American Metallic Cartridge Company, date unknown to me)
• .45 cal... (Early ammo box designations)
• Colt's 45 (Winchester)
• 45 Colt's U.S.A. (UMC)
• 45 Colt (Modern Designation by most ammo manufactures)
• and by the 1960's, it began to self-identify that it was longer than the unknown other short somethingornothers...thus the 45 "Long" Colt
• Uberti designates their 45 Colt revolvers as "45 lc" with a nice little annoying stamp on the frame.

My head hurts, gonna go shoot some

• groundhogs
• Whistle Pigs
• Woodchucks...

with my 44-40 ;-)

 

I try not to get worked up over small stuff. .45 Long Colt has been in common usage for a long time, and it does the job of conveying a meaning. If you ask for a box of .45 Long Colts you’ll get a box of .45 Colts and not .45 ACPs. If the counter guy is a Cliff Claven type you’ll also get a little lecture, I’m sure.

My Dad carried an M1 Carbine in WWII and he always called magazines “clips”. Who am I to “correct” him on his terminology? I didn’t leave high school to fight Hitler.

 

I try not to get worked up over small stuff.

After the back and forth over three dozen or so posts, you summed it up in a couple of sentences.

 

I’ve been arguing this for most of my life…..”officially” by some manufacturers there is no ”long” Colt. People in those days would walk into a hardware store and say, “I need a box of those 45’s”, the short ones as the long ones don’t fit.”

Then it got worse with the advent of the 45 a.c.p.

Jim Taylor has a box of “45 Short Colt” which are just very light loads. Elmer Keith talked about those in “Sixguns”.

See for yourself….from my personal collection…...the number at the top is the rim diameter. Remember, in those days there were no SAAMI specs and a gun guy was supposed to know what his gun used,



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a

 

I’ve been arguing this for most of my life…..”officially” by some manufacturers there is no ”long” Colt. People in those days would walk into a hardware store and say, “I need a box of those 45’s”, the short ones as the long ones don’t fit.”

Then it got worse with the advent of the 45 a.c.p.

Jim Taylor has a box of “45 Short Colt” which are just very light loads. Elmer Keith talked about those in “Sixguns”.

See for yourself….from my personal collection…...the number at the top is the rim diameter. Remember, in those days there were no SAAMI specs and a gun guy was supposed to know what his gun used,

The (510) longer unheadstamped, large Winchester or Gardner primed Winchester case on the far left is a 45 Colt
The (512) shorter, A.C. Hobbs primed unheadstamped cartridge to the right of it is a UMC unheadtsamped 45 Schofield or a Farrington primed USCCo. 45 Schofield
The (512) Sept 1892 Tinned cased cartridge is a Frankford Arsenal 45 Schofield.

Some of the primer information can be seen here.

Here is the headstamped versions

By Winchester 1895

Again by Winchester in 1925, but by the name .45 Colt Government, which is said is what the 45 Schofield was called during it's military use by the Cavilry.

by REM-UMC 1937

 

So which is it now? 45 "Long"/"Short" Colt revolver or 45 "Long"/"Short" Colt ammunition???

Can you only shoot 45 short Colt cartridges in the 45 Short Colt revolver?

Like I said, the "Long" wasn't popular enough to be documented or repeated on paper until Elmer Keith's books. After his book, Hell...Everyone Was There...lol! Even if there was only one box manufactured of 45 Short Colts, same with the 44-40...44 Remington box, do we now call the 44-40 a 44 Remington because of one or a few boxes??

Shooting Times, 1961. Nothing counts after 1955

The 45 Schofield cartridge was a lightly loaded cartridge compared to the 45 Colt cartridge.

At some point, the data I am looking for will be handed to me on a silver platter, until then...

PS: Thanks...that information has now been added to the 45 Long Colt data here

 

While we are on the topic, I will repost this unheadstamped 45 Colt cartridge.

The unheadstamp case dates the cartridge to pre-1885 when Winchester and other cartridge companied began to stamp the case heads with what you know we call headstamps.
The case held a 30gr black powder charge.
The lead bullet weighed 250gr.
So who made it?

The primer is key on who manufactured the cartridge. During this time the primer patent wars were HOT and no manufactured wanted to pay royalties so they tried to manufacture their own primers. This newer external primer industry was still rather new and constant primer patents were applied for with minor improvements to existing designs. This particular primer appears to be from Winchester employee John Gardner's patent 208,589 granted on October1st, 1878...making it a Winchester cartridge. This is basically how the primer patents help us identify who the manufacture was. Early primer boxes and even some cartridge boxes proudly show which primer patent they used.

This No. 1 W would be for the 44 W.C.F.

Garner's patent was an improvement of O.F. Winchester's July 24th, 1874 primer patent...the reason why the Winchester 73' rifle shipments were delayed due to the failed Milbank primed 44 W.C.F. primers being used for initial cartridge development. O.F. Winchester's anvil design was simply a "flat stock" piece of metal of which Gardner improved by stamping it into the "pointed pyramid" we use even today. Below, figure 1 shows the flat stock metal anvil (O.F. Winchester's design) of which then was formed into the pyramid (Gardner's improvement of an existing product) shape shown in fig. 3.

For other primer patents, photos and descriptions, click here

Winchester's 250gr swaged lead bullet. I did not take a photo of the base of the bullet, but it has the typical Winchester hollow base.